Transcript for "Move over, protein. It's time to fibermax.": Hello, and welcome to the highlight reel, an interview series with CPG founders and trailblazers talking about the products that we love. I'm Nate Rosen, founder of Express Checkout, and today with us, we have a very fun founder who is fueling better for you fiber filled snacks. We're gonna be talking about the state of grocery and retail. I'd like to introduce you to Alexander Harik, the founder of Zesty Z. Well, it's a pleasure to be here, and this is a very special episode. I think so. Right? The vibes are excellent. They're top notch. Vibes are great. Beautiful morning, positive energy. I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you. We got some coffee and maybe something else in these, in these mugs, and we're we're good to go. Well, I'm I'm here. I'm excited, and we've got things to talk about. Amazing. Well, I've heard this story a lot. Yes. Tell us a little bit about the beginning of Zesty Z, and how you got into this, and why you decided to come into CPG? Can I tell them what our product is first? No. Alright. Tell us what Zesty Z is. So we make perfect pita chips. They're high fiber, lower carb, twice baked from fresh pita. They are perfect. Thank you very much. We're very proud of that that they're baked from fresh pita, and they've got six grams of fiber. And we launched the product last year, at Summer Fancy Food here in New York. I remember. And we're in about 500 stores, in just about a year. Some of the big retailer names are Meijer and Wegmans, and we'll talk about that. But, and we're slowly expanding to the East Coast now after our first year. So we just celebrated the first year of birthday. I'm hanging with you. Amazing. We've come a long way from our first meeting. How did we meet? We had donuts in my pickup truck in Connecticut when I moved out there. Fiber donuts. Right? No. These are regular. Full of sugar. They're they're big. They're they're good. They're good. I love a donut more than a croissant. Is it a donut crazy in Westport? It was. It was. And, that's how we first met through CPG. That was fun. We were yapping then. We were yapping now. And that was, what, like, five years ago? Five years ago. Look and look at us now in a fancy studio. Thanks to Highlights, Shoutout, What Up, you know? And, look at us. So I'm excited. And I've been CPG for about seven years, and the journey has been very interesting. It's a good journey. Very humbling. Lot of learnings. Lot of learnings. A lot of mental health work. A lot of pivots. The PETA chip pivot will come out. Pivot is my favorite thing. Thank you very much. And just, maximum gratitude. Just just a lot. So to answer your original question, how we got started, I worked in banking and finance, in New York, originally from the area. Went to school in Ohio. Shout out Ohio. Cleveland, Ohio. Love it. And I came back, was working, for about ten years in finance and hated it. Classic. Didn't feel alive, didn't feel creative, wasn't using all my skills Right. Wasn't making anything. And I was a kid that liked Legos and bottle rockets and tree houses and things, so I always was a builder. Yeah. And I come from a Lebanese background. And I said, hey. Food's important to the culture. So, mom, we should start selling some food. And we originally launched the brand, selling a premium za'atar. And we were the first premium za'atar brand in The US. I miss that za'atar. It's really good. It's really good. My mom misses that za'atar too. She thinks about it all. Yeah. Well, I still listen. I've got a VIP stock, you know. Sharon, if you're listening, you know Send it to her. We got it. She would love that. Oh my god. I still have a VIP stash, of it. But we launched the Zatar, and I was working in finance and at nights and weekends going with my mom to space we rented, in Brooklyn in Bed Stuy and manufacturing till two, three in the morning, and then making that, and then going on the weekends door to door, you know, selling, demoing, hustling with the blue IKEA bag riding the riding the subways. And we got into about 50 of the independent stores here. Really learned the business that way from the ground up. I did every single job, and then we launched, expanded with Whole Foods nationally, several thousand retailers, Costco, and then COVID killed my business. A classic story. I've heard that, many times. Yeah. We've heard that many times. I've heard it from a ton. And I just I think one of the characteristics that I've also had, not just building, is just persistence. Like, I don't mind quitting, but am I gonna exhaust everything along the way? Can I sleep at night? Right. And I knew I wasn't done yet. And I think Zadzar taught us a very important lesson. So when because of the importing, inflation, things supply chain, it just killed it. It was a little bit of a blessing in disguise. Of course, I missed the product, but a ton of learnings from that that have informed me for the big pivot that we made for pita chips. And the two important lessons I learned were educating your customer is expensive and kinda sucks. Especially at retail. Really. Yeah. And you're bootstrapped. You don't have a big marketing budget. It's hard. Yeah. And you wanna be in higher velocity categories like bars, beverages, snacks, things like that. Right. Condiments and spices and things like that wasn't really it. But I didn't know that. So you don't know what you don't know. Right. And so I think that's one of the benefits. I look for the silver lining, everything, have a positive attitude, reflect with gratitude, things like that. I'm grateful for that experience. And those are two of the four lessons that I learned that informed us for the pita chips. Yeah. That makes sense. So that killed the business in about 2021. RIP. RIP. Then he then he came back. He made a big pivot. So then well, there's more. Oh. There's more. Dude, how's short lived popcorn line. Those were that was really good popcorn. I'll tell you what. Your boy makes great products. Alright. Always. That was the best popcorn on the market. The honey sea salt flavor, people still ask about. Yeah. And one thing on product is we make great products, but a CPG kinda lesson is just because you make a great product Yeah. Doesn't mean it should exist and doesn't mean you have product market fit. Exactly. It's the full picture. Full picture. So we shut so we shut the Zatar line down. Had a tough conversation Yeah. With my cofounder who's my mom. Shout out. What's up, mama? I love you. Best mom. Zesty mom. Lorraine. Lorraine, I love you. She's the rock of Zesty Z. We'll Amazing. I love seeing her at all the trade shows. Thank you. Thank you. She loves you too. And we'll talk about Zesty mom because there would be no Zesty Z without Lorraine. Right. Absolutely. I'm gonna get emotional later for sure, but we'll save that. Park that to the side. Weird if you didn't. True. True. True. So we shut it down. Tough conversation with mom, but we gotta do it. She's like, okay. I trust you. We go into popcorn, with global flavors. We did, a honey sea salt, which was amazing instead of a kettle corn. Really, really good. It was really good, but so popcorn. We did a feta cheese one instead of cheddar. Like the Harissa one. We did a spicy up. We did one. Oh, good. We did a za'atar one. Yeah. And there we shut that down within a year. And I think the lesson there, you know, I'm not afraid to fail fast, and I'm not afraid to shut things down. Like, I think detaching your ego, I think there's a lot of founders Mhmm. Probably should be doing that more. Yes. It has helped me quite a bit make very clear eyed decisions on where we wanna go when it's very obvious. And we'll talk more about that. But we shut that down. But the lesson two lessons I learned there were people don't care about global flavors. Hot take. I think it's good hot take. Hot take. Most people are just down the middle. Yeah. And you can't think of things just on the coasts in New York, LA, etcetera. Like, most people just want simple, basic, you know, kinda middle of the road flavors. And there's nothing wrong with global flavors, but just as a sustainable business for snacking and some other things, I'm just not very high on that. And I I have to experience and I come from this doctor business, so I'm telling you this from a very painful Right. Like, place. Like, that was a big lesson. I don't think people care that much about global flavors. Of course, there are successful brands out there who have bucked that trend. But by and large, if I'm giving advice to someone now who's starting a business, leave the global flavors alone. Go down the middle. That was lesson three or four. Right? So Too many. Right? It's too many lessons on that. Lot of lessons. Then the final one was popcorn was a very competitive category. Ton of players, and I didn't really understand category dynamics as much. And then after looking back on it, I was like, okay. Yeah. This makes sense. Yeah. The popcorn category is loaded with big national brands and big regional brands. And, like, some of the number one brands are doing 300,000,000 in sales, but number two brand is doing 200,000,000. Right. It's 100,000,000. And then 75. And so it's just, like, really? It's also a commoditized product too. And now Hershey's owns two of the leading brands. Exactly. So it's just like like, what's going on here? You can't compete with that. You can't. There's no way on earth you you and something is like luck, hard work, timing. Just we missed the the popcorn thing, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. You're a little late. So we shut that down. So to recap, the four lessons are educating your customer is expensive, don't go into slow velocity categories Yep. Forget about global flavors, stay down the middle, focus more on nutrients and ingredients, and then try to avoid really, you know, competitive categories. So I was gonna shut the business down completely and say, peace out. Go back to investment banking. Go work for pet, cannabis, other CPG brands, do operations, maybe start something else, take a sabbatical, play tennis. Down in Miami? Down in Miami. To linen. Any tennis players out there in CPG, let me know. New hobby. And I'm working on my one handed backhand. Oh, I got really good at that when I was younger. But I I know I gotta start playing with them. Host a, a CPG tennis party in Connecticut? Yeah. We should. We should. That is the most Connecticut thing we could do. But there's a lot of tennis players in the city. Go bring them out to Connecticut. Come on down. I'll rent out all the courts at the club. I'll drive them out. I got a car. We're all good. North too. I'll pick them up from the train station. There you go. Little tennis refreshments. We'll see who can do bad things. Good idea. This is a good idea. I got some brands who can, We should do this. Yeah. We should do this. Alright. No. That camera, that camera, that camera. Boom, boom, boom. Where was that? So I was gonna shut down the business. And then I went and spoke with some retailers and distributors and I said, hey, thinking of stepping away before I go. What do you like? What do you see? What do you know? They're like, hey, You've always made great products. Before you go, I think you should look at pita chips. And this is where listening to your customers make sense. I said, why? You have a pretty big brand at the top. The the one that shall not be named. And then, I was like, hey. You got this big brand at the top. And they're like, yeah. It's been around for thirty years. Nice product, but same packaging, same flavors, nothing new, and there's really not any competition. Right. You're also Lebanese, like, it would fit with the brand story. Why don't you look at it? So using the four lessons that I kind of learned the hard way, checks off. No education, check. High velocity? Check. More down the line flavors probably? Check. Competitive category? Not so much, so check. Yeah. And I was like, wow. It's really top heavy. It's like 80% market share. And that's crazy. When you Can you think I mean, can you really think of another, like, brand? Yeah. Outside of private label and, like, maybe a original thing. But if I ask you for a popcorn brand, if I ask you for a tortilla chip brand, a beverage, a bar brand, whatever, you'll name me five off the cuff. Boom. Right. That all control a pretty significant portion of the markets. So from a more strategic standpoint, it was like, wow. Okay. We really could disrupt here and have some fun. So it checks off all these boxes for me. And then for my own personal health and, you know, wellness journey, like protein and fiber and I'm a nutritionist, you know, and I used to be a hundred pounds heavier, had high cholesterol. So I've been on quite a journey on my own as well. Protein and fiber are things that I was always eating and focusing and prioritizing. Right. And seeing what happened with protein over the past couple years, I was like, okay. I don't know if we need more protein. You don't need a protein pita chip. We don't need a protein. No. The alliteration does sound really fine. Nice. Especially with the PPP, perfect pita chip. Picked protein pita chip would would sound pretty good. Yeah. But I think you're okay. There's protein pretzels. I think that's enough. There's a lot of protein. I was old enough to remember when they were sprinkling probiotics on all sorts of snacks when I first got into the game, and I thought that was ridiculous. Yeah. They were like protein tort I mean, probiotic, like, tortilla chips and, like, a trail mix. At my first Expo West Good. I was like, I'll just eat the yogurt, you know? Yeah. Yogurt. I love the kimchi. Maybe the AliPap at at most. Kiefer, you know, yeah. But we don't need snacks sprinkled with No. That trend died. Now protein, tons of benefits, whatever, but I just felt it was oversaturated. And then from my own experience in food science and manufacturing, I was like, okay. Fiber makes a ton of sense. Baking science aligns more with fiber. So long story short, in 2023, I made a decision. We're gonna give this one last time. Making this big pita chip pivot. Gonna take all my experience and make this bet on fiber. We spend a year on r and d, and baking science is hard. Yeah. It's a science. It's hard. And we did a ton of work. I work with some awesome people. We developed awesome recipe. And then we launched the product in, at Summer Fancy Food last year, and it's the response has been amazing. We've got a ton of industry press. Fiber demand is up 29% year over year. Spinz featured us in a big report. That was huge. You saw that report. Yeah. That was big time. Big time. They put us right next to, like, Quest and Wild and nutrient dense snacking is back. I mean, it was unbelievable. Right. And on their analysis, it was, like, protein is up 33 to 35% year over year, but fiber's right next to it. Yeah. 29%. So we've really leaned in on it, but I think the biggest thing I'm also proud of, not only nailing that, it's a really good chip. You can taste we make it from high quality. Chip in the market. Thank you. It's crunchy. There's flame grill marks on both sides, double edges, curved edges. It's aesthetically pleasing. It tastes great. It's like a nice car. Thank you. Thank you. So that's the journey, kinda that's the pivot. And I'm just taking all my lessons, and we're having a ton of fun. Our go to market strategy was mostly in the Midwest, learning kinda we're seeing great turns Yeah. Great numbers there, working with the right people, focused, slow and steady, and having a ton of fun. The last thing I'll say is, man, product market fit is a great high. Oh, of course. And you know you know when you have it too. Cooking, baby. You know Yes. When you feel it. Because you because everyone's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. You know, and I say this with great humility and I tell our team and everybody, like, keep your head down, foot on the gas. But wow. Like and just because there's a ton of outside press and kind of momentum talking about fiber and the benefits, I don't have to educate. Yeah. People are like, yeah. This makes a ton of sense. And retailers are really responding to it as our customers. So that's the story. Quite a journey. Quite a journey. I think the two coolest things about that story in particular is, like, one, how much that one brand controls the market and how the number two and three are just, like, so much lower. So based on our analysis, the big brand controls over 80%. The next closest is seven. That's insane. And it's a copycat product, same color packaging, same kind of thing, and it just trickles off from there. So our view is, like, you've got a ton of room to disrupt here. Yeah. And Get a good product to lean into the function. There's a and there's a ton of articles really in CPG. I mean, I'm sure maybe you wanna talk about this, but, like, big CPG is at a crossroads right now. Yes. They are. They're losing a ton of market share despite years. There's a great New York Times article that our article about it. Yep. Despite years of price increases. Wow. I wish I could have that. Right? Like And still sell. Yeah. Yeah. And still sell after years of price increases. Yeah. They're losing, like, 60 60% of market share. Innovation pipelines are drying up. There's a flurry of m and a activity. And So And New York Times article last week was talking about it. And even, like, the parent company of of the big brand was saying on earnings calls, it's like, hey. We're looking to add more protein, more fiber, more different things to things. And it that just makes me feel too like, yo. We're really on the right track with this Yeah. Product market fit. Seeing that article, that's what they were telling investors on their quarterly call. I was like, damn. We let's keep cooking, baby. Let's keep moving. Yeah. These these new these, you know, bigger CPG brands, they need some innovation. They're not really willing to do it in house fully. And when they do it in house, it's either post acquisition or I think I think the Pepsi probiotic is actually pretty good. I think it's good that they branded it as Pepsi Cola, and I got to try it early, and it tastes just like Pepsi. And, like, I know some people don't like Pepsi. That's fine. But it tastes like Pepsi. So for people who like Pepsi and who don't really want the poppy thing, like, that's good. It works. It's playing into the emerging stuff, but it's also playing into, like, what we're seeing before. Most people just want the middle. They want the normal. They don't want anything crazy. People just keep it down the middle. Shoot down the middle. Yeah. They don't want anything, like, too out there in either direction, whether it's flavor, whether it's whether it's a cultural representation, unfortunately, or or whether it's even branding. Some people like, there's too much over branding that I think a lot of people are are put off by even if it's a really good product. Sure. But, yeah, I mean, I I think, like, a lot of these massive conglomerates are either going to be acquiring other bigger ones and trying to consolidate, or they're doing the acquisition of these upstarts emerging brands. 100%. Pepsi with Poppy. There is a big I think so being in the game now seven, eight years, I mean, I was old enough. You know? I mean, I'm old enough in the game to remember the probiotic thing in my first expo west. And I think there's a period of brands where it was, like, 2017, '18 through 2023, there was, like, a phase. Yeah. And you see some of those emerging brands that have either been acquired or now mature. Right. And now I feel and with big CPG not innovating as much and there's kind of, like, a gap. I think there's a really interesting time now, and I think for us, it's an exciting time where it's like there's kinda there's this white space. It's like, what's the next emerging better for you, fun kind of brand that can nail it, that really has a shot? Yeah. And I put our putting our hat into that category. I think our packaging is clean. I think the nutritionals are very straightforward. It's an amazing product. Number one rule of CPG. And I I'm very excited about where things are. I think there's a ton of white space right now. And for any founders who are out there or whatnot, like, hopefully, these rules help you figure it out and, like, get out there. But there's some other advice I have for founders. We can we can give it later. Well, I I think the other part of that story too is, like, you're listening to the buyers and retailers about what they're seeing. Yes. You're also listening to sort of more loosely, like, what the customers are seeing is, like, has there been anything really surprising any surprising learnings from customers and retailers that you weren't expecting? So I I think yes. Yeah. Like, forget the global flavors. Forget, like, so crazy. Like, just go down the middle. Like, keep it simple, stupid. Like so that's what I'm noticing about customers. Like, with the way things are right now, customers have a very short attention span. And if you try to go too niche, it can work for some things, but broadly speaking, you can complicate or you're just doing too much. So keeping it really simple. And then from retailers, what I'm what I'm hearing a ton of things too is that they're just kinda disappointed with the innovation pipeline that's been out there, and they're looking for new things. Yeah. And that's what, you know, one of the key factors I think that landed us with two really tier one retailers in the first year, Meijer and Wegmans. Right. And I think for us too, the fiber piece that plays with it too, not only for, you know, gut health, feeling full, weight loss management, there's blood sugar regulation. And a ton of our early customers on our website were buying cases of the product and even locally near me who wear glucose monitors and stuff. And they were saying, hey. This doesn't spike my blood sugar as much. This is a snack that I can actually enjoy. So for the diabetic, for the GLP one Ozempic community, or just people monitoring their blood sugar in general, like, the benefits of fiber on blood sugar is something that we're monitoring. What does that look like? So those factors are certainly interesting in what retailers are telling us as well. Yeah. Yeah. I find that fiber, protein, and caffeine are, like, the three most truly functional ingredients you can have. Very simple. I like, there's very few other ones that I feel like are even feel as more obviously, there's like ashwagandha and altheanine. There's these other additives that come on now. I know. I think it's caff personally, I think it's caffeine and protein are, like, the two most, but I also like Like, there was a there was a period where there were products coming out with all sorts of stuff in there. And I just think So are. Hot take number two, I just think those type of products I mean, what are they doing? Like, what what are they actually doing for the consumer? Because in my in my view, like, do you know how much of this actual, like, particular ingredient you need to see that benefit? So, like, it's just a kind of, like, a flashy, like, marketing, like, kinda thing, and I I just think those things have short shelf life. A flash in the pan. Like, if you want those functional mushrooms or you want something just take a mushroom supplement. Like, don't, like, coming brands coming out with certain things and adding a ton of things in there. Consumers. No. Either. And then the other thing too is is for how much are people gonna actually pay for the product? I mean, like, come on. Like, the founders are overestimating, like, just based on their bubble or in their region or where they live. It's like you need to focus on, again, down the middle, and that's why we launched in the Midwest. Like, that demographic, like, these are people like, affordability is is the one of the biggest things that we thought about. A bag for us at Meijer, at Wegmans, $4.99 a bag. It's very reasonable. And in the Midwest, so we were launching our first big retailer, you know, the other brand is at $4.49. We're at 11% premium. I felt that that was very reasonable, and our numbers are crushing it there. Even on promo, we're killing it. And so, like, the thing that's interesting is, like, affordability and approachability. That's what really has driven our pivot, and we're seeing the benefits of that. And so that's where I think brands really need to focus more. Yeah. I mean, that's why private label is crushing. Love private label. Yeah. And I think a lot of brands should because they can always become that private label. Most of my shopping cart is private label and not just a Trader Joe's. Yeah. I I mean, seriously, like, I I think that there's I mean, I'm very open, to private label. There's some really cool things we're thinking about and doing. And for us, what's interesting with us is I can make alternative versions. Most private label, like, you change ingredients, you do certain things. So you're gonna make a protein version. I like that. I've been asked. Yeah? I've had people ask me for that. And I say to them, come on now. Just get a Equinox bag. Oh. Protein. I do go to Equinox. It's partial to them. Equinox? Equinox. I've I've actually been asked by multiple people for a protein pizza, but I have to say simmer down now. Simmer down now. Like, we're we're not going there. But private label for sure, is a I love cash flow. I love economy of scale. Guess what? You're running a business. 100%. This idea of top line, boom, let's go. LFG, like, top line revenue. It's sexy. Dead. It's dead. You know what's sexy? Cash flow, profitability. Amazing. And if, you know, investors and strategics, you know, don't really, you know, prioritize that as much, I think that view is changing. And I think people need to be more realistic where consumers, the economy Why don't we get you so far? That's it. LinkedIn following only gets you so far. Again, cash flow is king, baby. Yeah. I love cash flow. I love margin. Wouldn't you rather build for the consumer rather than for the industry? Yes. 100%. That's why about this all the time. That's why I'm not one of those guys with the focusing a lot on LinkedIn and Twitter so much. I chirp a little bit. I tweet a little. You should. You should be present. You should be active. Some lessons. Yeah. Some lessons for sure. Sharing with But there's a huge difference between building for your own personal gain Yes. And for your business. You talk about that a lot with me privately, and I heard you talk about this online and some other places too. You can tell. You can. You can tell. You can tell when people are doing it. It's like, oh, what are you doing here? Yeah. Like, are you focusing on the biz, or is the biz not going where you want it to go? Or are you one foot in, one foot out? And no judgments, but it's like, oh, you can tell. And And it's fine. If you wanna be an influencer, be an influencer. But I don't. Exactly. The the the one foot in one foot out is is is what's an issue to me in leveraging the brand to become an influencer Agree with you. Feels misguided. Where are your priorities? Yeah. My yeah. Yeah. I I think that's well said there. I think especially if I was an investor, I'd be a a little concerned. I don't think any consumers buy a brand because of their founder I don't think they're I shouldn't say never. Very rarely does a consumer walk by a product and be like, wow. Yes. Very rarely. We'll never say never. Yeah. But it's like, hot. I love this brand because I love this founder so much. On LinkedIn. On LinkedIn or his or her Twitter. Very rarely. I think if if the person's already an influential influential person and they're coming to market with a brand, sure. That that's a but most consumers will not know that, Max Chewing is the founder of Sour Strips. So We'd have no idea. I don't even know I don't even know. Max, I'm sure you make a point of I am I am it's a good product. It was acquired by Hershey's. Very good for him. He's a YouTuber and you're funny because when you text me something on our private text, and I'm like, oh, what's that? Or who's that? You're like, god, I love you. Like I I am I am I hope I'm not putting you on the spot here. No. No. No. I'm I'm I feel like this needs to come out a little bit. I'm cursed with knowledge. It's shout out Thanos, I guess. I'm it's my job. I like I like to know what's happening. I don't job. You're in the space. You're supposed to know these things. To know these things. I don't think a lot of people should necessarily know who x, y, and z brand that the industry knows. And, like, I learned this very quickly early on in sort of building out my career. What I thought was a very well known brand, even if they were on Shark Tank, many people didn't know. Even people within our industry didn't know this brand. And that's fine. It it's it's hard. It's hard with a CPG product to get known because you need to be seen so many times. You have to be hit with that brand Sure. On shelf, online. Another kind of hot CPG take, maybe I don't know the beauty space as much, but influencer led brands, I'm shorting. I personally It's very hard. I It's hard? I think it's hard to make most of them work long term Yes. Unless the influencer or creator or talent is Very actively involved. Very actively involved. And the product has to be good. Yeah. This is like one of the biggest things and I was recently talking about it with someone like your product needs to be excellent. There was, a Wall Street Journal article that was talking about trying a bunch of it just came out last week. Bunch of protein snacks. And, the journalist was like, I felt sick at the end of the day. And that that was her take. And I did not I've not tried most of these products, so I cannot comment, won't comment on that. But her conclusion was like, yeah. These made me feel sick. Like, these weren't that great. And it's like, at the end of the day, think about an average consumer, like, are they gonna repeat buy that product? I think about that all the time. Yeah. And especially if there's talent behind it of any sort, it has to be a good product. Good product. Otherwise, it's not gonna go up. It's not gonna do it. Ryan Trahan is a a very popular YouTuber who I'm sure you haven't heard of. I have no idea. Yeah. Perfect. I have no idea. Which is always amazing to me because, like, he's I don't know. He's probably got millions and millions Sure. Millions of followers and is, like, going forward with that. Cool. Like, I don't know. You're you're fine. I don't think you should have this right now. He's a candy brand k. Called, Joyride. Okay. I think it's that. K. Or they they were they were around. They rebranded. He, like, took it over, and and they repositioned him as the as the founder. But it is Graduation. Number one or number two candy brand in Target. Amazing. Good. Because it's a decent product. He is actually, like, living and breathing the brand, which I think is really important. Affordable. It's affordable. Approachable. Good products. These are the lessons. Boom. Boom. And they're also, like, it's like a better candy, but they're not, like, fully leaning into that. They're leaning to, hey. It's a good candy that also happens to be better for you. I love that. And I think, like, that's the key thing. I think that's the key thing with your product too. It's good first, and also it's better for you. We got six grams of fiber. Yeah. So Do you find that retailers are other than, like, finally a better pita chip and a pita chip is not That's our motto. Did you know that? Finally a new pita chip? You know I knew that. I know. I'm teasing you. Keeping you on the track here. Has you asked me something about that. No. I'm curious about retail because, like, your first brand you started, you got in, obviously, this is pre pandemic, so you had a little bit more leeway, luck, whatever you wanna call it. How is it how is the retail landscape shifted over the past, you know, seven years since originally launching the brand? I I think a lot of people, a lot of retailers, are moving away from the global flavor part. Right. And more functional. So I think that's kind of the biggest shift, that's there. I think a lot of retailers, in the Midwest are really open for business, and that's why we launched there. Yeah. And I think, conventional is what we're leaning into as well. So those three things. You know, when we first started, you know, natural, independent, kind of that, I think that playbook is tired, and I'm making a bet on it. People might find that a hot take number three. People might people might find that controversial, but I actually you know, I'm betting on it and I've talked to a lot of other founders that were like, hey, Alexander, you going to the Midwest because they have bigger format stores, more real estate, you know, easier to deal with. You can work directly with them. It's not congested like in LA and New York, Tri State. They're like, that was super smart. Conventional stores are bigger than natural. They now have more natural sets in them. Oh, okay. And they're looking and they just have more volume. So I think that paradigm has shift shifted to where us leaning into go to the Midwest, go more conventional, be one of the earlier, better for you brands. I think that's also been significant for us as well in the landscape. Yeah. And you get a consumer that will probably once they fall in love with the product, will buy it forever. Yes. And will tell their friends and the Yes. And it's $4.99 a bag for our perfect pita chips. And they're gonna say, wow. This is cool and it's got 6 grams of fiber. And I found this in the deli department. Great. And the flavor pipeline is also really cool. It is. Yeah. We have some fun flavors coming down. Can't say too much about it, but we're not doing a Mediterranean herb. That's for sure. Everything bagel. See you later. We're doing fun stuff, but still down the middle. We're gonna be looking at other categories. Yeah. You know, other snack categories. What are the best flavors there? What customers are looking for. Flavor? Yeah. It's a ton of flavor collabs. There's an awesome tab. Pasco? I mean, that's something that could be cool for something spicy. But being a New Yorker and being a New York brand, love to do a New York style pizza flavor. So Joe. You know, any of these pizza shops that wanna do a situation with us as we grow, that would be cool. Shout out to Shelby, our marketing director, who came up with that idea. It's a And it's how we met. It's how we met. Yeah. So thank you, Shelby. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Introduce you to Shelby. You did. Shelby's great. Shelby's great. And so, yeah, I think there's some cool flavor collabs, and we just wanna have fun with it. Yeah. It's a tired category. It's been around for thirty years, and we're just shaking some things up, breathing some life, and just taking things with gratitude and, you know, hard work and just having fun. Have fun. Like, I tell our team all the time, you have to operate out of joy. And I wasn't always doing that, and those are some of the mental health things that I kinda worked on. Let's talk about that. Let's Yeah. I mean, I know that part of your journey has been prioritizing your mental health and I think also as I've met other founders and I've met more folks, it seems like more people need a focus on it. Yeah. I think the two biggest things is detach your ego. Like, really. Like, that's important. I joked about the tennis thing, but detaching your self worth and ego from the outcome of your business was groundbreaking for me. You know, I wasn't doing that. I first got into the industry. I was like, oh, we've gotta do this and it's stress. Makes sense. I got myself sick, like Yeah. With it and, like, it affected relationships of all kinds for me, and it was just not great. And, like, the stress and the tension is, like, oh, we gotta do this. We gotta go. We gotta go. Hustle. LFG. Whatever. Not. And you can't see the forest from the trees. Right. You can't. And you're, like and you can't make important decisions if your ego is tied into it because, oh, I'm Alexander from Zesty Z. How could I possibly give up Zazadar? Like, there's a little voice in your head that says that. Right. I'm the Zazadar guy. Yeah. It's also, like, was linked to, like, my Lebanese roots, and I was, like, oh, got so I was, like, tied up in that. So I made that detachment through a lot of work and it it it bore a lot of fruits. Like, the fruits of that decision were amazing. So detaching your self worth, also part of that, having friends who are not in CPG? Normal people? What's that called? Normal people. People talk to me about that. They're like, yeah. That's good advice. Like, I Yeah. Having a hobby. Tennis for me is that outside of, like, fitness and things like that or whatever. But, like, really having a hobby and, like, a circle of friends. And when I'm playing tennis, like, all jokes aside, it's active meditation for me. I literally think of nothing else when I'm out there. And in my spare time, the little of it that I have, like, I'm watching YouTube videos. I'm doing things. I'm practicing on my own. And I think the exercise of slowly working towards a higher goal is important lesson everyone should should really work on. And then the other piece is self awareness is a superpower. Oh, I was not self aware in a lot of ways. And now after a ton of work and things It's hard. It's hard. But once you once you start working on it, that's a big one. And I'm realizing more and more people who are self aware, like, those are the people you wanna connect with. So I think how you react to situations, what are your triggers, like, what brings you joy? What brings you sadness? How how are you feeling in this moment? Not reacting really quickly. You know? Right. How to deal with conflict, you know, joy. So just the self awareness piece is is a superpower that, I'm trying to talk more about and encourage more people to to to work on. Yeah. But those are the kind of the mental health things that have really helped me kind of be in a really, really good space so I can operate out of joy and flow. So the creativity just flows, and we're having a ton of fun. I mean, it looks like it. Thank you. I think we're having fun. We are. I'm having fun too. We are. Yes. I would love some pita chips right now. I know. I know. Some ASMR. I forgot them. I know. I was supposed to bring a bunch of bags and it's my bag. I ate all the bags in my home so Thank you. And all the the samples of future food. We should have done some ASMR here. We should have done some ASMR. The crunch is unbelievable. The crunch is insane. And it's not oily too. Now you're cooking, baby. Which I think no. It's like it's makes such a difference, and they're all the perfect size. Is that a pun intended? You said perfect. No. Or a a Freudian slip maybe. I like that. They are good size because we actually make them from real pita bread. So, like, other brands out there, especially the leaders, don't. They make them like crackers. You'll see some brands that are like circle crackers. They're too thin? Too thin. They're fried. Well, it looks like because a pita is two sides. Two sides. You're actually And a lot of the chips are just one. One. Because they make them like crackers. They sheet them out now. So for us, we actually make pita dough using a traditional Lebanese Syrian style pita bread, and it gets baked. And they're round sizes, and they get flipped and baked. They puff up, they go down. We cut them up, we bake them again. A lot of other brands just make their pita chips like a cracker or in circle shapes or frying them, and it's just not not great. I like that they're not big triangles either. Thank you for that. That hurts. It's like a like it's like a Yeah. Like stabbing yourself. Like, yeah. It's like having a bunch of what's the cereal that cuts up the roof of your mouth? It's Cap'n Crunch? I don't know. Captain Crunch. I've never had it. What I know. What do you have for breakfast? Do you really wanna know what I have for breakfast? So I've got This is relevant, by the way. This is relevant. So I've so my breakfast is 50 grams of protein. That's insane. So we've got a 150 grams of egg whites, two eggs, a full serving of Greek yogurts. You could just have two David bars. I could. I could do that. I could do that. Or I could just have this this egg. Also good. Yep. I have half avocado. I have some toast, and, some blackberries with the yogurt, 50 grams. That's what I have every day. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I have every day. You're gonna eat what I have. What are you having? Captain Crunch. No. I have a bowl of Honey Nut Cheerios. Okay. That's not that bad. It's not that bad. Then I have some milk and I have a cough. Where's the protein, bro? How does cheese on, oat toast? Okay. So okay. There you go. With some honey on top. There it is. That's pretty good breakfast. Yeah. Or I'll have, like, peanut butter on toast. And if I'll make a smoothie, I'll do, like, peanut butter, milk, banana, maybe a little coffee in there. Very healthy. You're good. Yeah. Go go. You're good. Or I'll just forget breakfast altogether. That's not good. I do text you sometimes. Have you do you remember have you remember to eat and that I'm very much like my father where I will forget to eat. Your mother does text me sometimes. I will check on you. Matt. I do not. Let's get this out there. Your mother does text me sometimes. She's gonna do listen to this. This is why this is a very special episode. Nate's mother, who's a lovely human being, does sometimes check on me. Have you talked to Nate? Where's Nate? Fine. Have you talked to Nate? Where's Nate? Is he eating? All she used to do is go to my Substack, my TikTok, my LinkedIn, my Instagram. Trying to think about the details. Happy to be a resource for her. She also has my location. I'm fine. I know. I know. But I think it's tender. You won't give me a chance. She likes it? She likes it that I'm kinda looking out for you. And that's why this is a special episode. I need it. But she she knows what I'm snacking on at the very least. It's true. She appreciates it. Well, she's very proud of you. She gets the new stuff. The Express Checkout's moving. It's moving great. Doing cool things. You're doing content. We're doing this. We're doing this. You're a leading voice in the industry. I try to be. We're gonna get you to more trade shows. I would like to go to a grocery store. Fantastic happy hour and fancy food. We did. We should host some more. We are gonna do more things together. With highlight. We could do that for sure. They've sponsored it and having this great studio. I mean, look at this. We should host people here at this studio. We could do a lot of things. But congratulations to all your success. Well, thank you. I'm very proud of you. You've come a long way. We both have. I do post a lot. You do. More than me. Rightfully so. Yes. This is my job. It's true. My job is to shout out founders and great brands. What else you got for me? What else I got for you? Are we at peak protein? Feels like it. Yeah. There there is a cereal brand that just came out that has creatine protein. I know. I was surprised they called out keto. I thought that died a while ago. I thought so too. I thought that died a while ago. I'm shocked. I will try. Yeah. I don't, I haven't tried it, so I can't comment on it. Keto. Keto's. Yeah. Keto's gone. I mean, I don't I I was never on the diet. I don't know so much about it. Protein, my hot take is because I Yeah. I'm giving you hot taste. Come on, man. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Protein and everything. Screw it. I'd I'd people are consuming it. I think there's enough consumers who want it in convenient fact in convenient formats. Yeah. I think it's fine. What do you think about hydration? Are we peak hydration? I hope so. There there was this Wall Street Journal article where they, like Yes. Talked to scientists and we both I I live with a a surgeon, a physician. Yep. Your your sister's a physician, a surgeon as well. And I've heard this forever. I mean, my my wife tells me all the time, it's like this is just unnecessary. And, like, my take with the hydration brands is it's great they exist. There's great founders. There's great products out there. There's plenty I'd recommend Right. From, like, an actual, hey. You need this hydration, these electrolytes. No. Most of us are not crazy athletes or out in the ocean for three weeks on a raft and are dehydrated. Or playing tennis for two hours in the heat. You're not even that dehydrated enough to need anything more than water. You're probably right. But I do take hydration only when I play tennis. But, yeah, I'm with you on that. I mean, I Most people want it for the flavor. Yeah. Most people don't like plain water, which is fine. And I Just drink it. Just drink water. I like flavored water. I like I like my Salud hydration packets, Elbit. Salud is my favorite. Nice product. Salud is really good. All, like, agua fresca flavors. Really, really good. I also really like their caffeinated. Haven't tried that. Thank you. You're big on caffeine as a trend. Still big on caffeine. What? So what? Caffeine in the So you said you said something interesting. You think the three things moving forward, looking forward as we kinda, like, wrap up the, like static. What are the things that you are bullish on in consumer? And you said protein, fiber, and caffeine. Yeah. We talked about protein. We've obviously talked about fiber in the in the white space that's there. Caffeine. And caffeine, you know, is something, you know I think you're right about these three things. They are very simple to digestible. You know Nutrients. What you're getting. And that's that's it, baby. That's why, like, energy drinks have been such a consistent thing and why they're still big. People know what these still big. People know what these ingredients mean. Whether it's more broadly or specifically for them. They know what fiber it is. There's no education needed. Circling back to keyless. No education needed. That that that is the biggest thing. I mean, on shelf, you have three seconds at most. You really do. You really do. At most, you have three seconds to be, like, okay. Yeah. I'm gonna get this. Especially if it's a new product. And I think it was new products too, and maybe this is hot take. I think number four is, like, maybe the barrier to entry in CPG is too low. And I'm not one to say, like, oh, it's stifle innovation and this and that. But, like, are you really thinking intention intentionally about the product you're doing it? Are you launching this product because you can get easy access to money, you worked in VC Yeah. Or you have money You need some, like if you're Like, yeah. You need something. Like, just launching a brand to launching a brand, like, I'm not sure that's a great strategy. And so some of these products that you see that are very niche, whether it's like some quote unquote functional things or this and that or flavors, this. And I'm like, why? Because it's gotta be digestible. Pun intended. And affordable and affordable young people. Like, a customer is not gonna continue this and you don't like, stop spending money. If you're also like a mostly a retail ready I think you were talking about the what does that mean? Like, we're not a d d c brand. No. Most food brands are not. So stop it. So stop it. You're shipping air. Yeah. Unless you're shipping, like, small dense products in, like, a 24 pack where the numbers, like, break out, You're not. You're a retail ready. So understand what that dynamic looks like and what it takes to succeed there. Like and, yes, DDC works for a ton of brands and, you know, good for them. But for the overwhelming majority of CPG, we're shipping air. Right. You know? Right. And so I just think like that piece too. It's like, do we really need this product? Like, is this retail ready focused? Most Is it digestible? The things in food and bev and I has arguably been made and perfected. I Yes. Yes. May may maybe it's not the best version that it could be, but it's it's been done. And I think if you wanna start a brand, you have an idea, I I do think you should go for it, but you should be very cognizant of, like, especially food and beverage. The margins are not always great. Oh. A lot of the categories and the subcategories are already very crowded. And, like, to stand out, know what your moat could be. Is it you're really good at social media and you can get this in front of a lot of people really quickly to garner that core audience space? And then and then get to retail and then move move forward. Like, there's a a a yogurt brand sour milk. They're great on presenting themselves online. Are there a lot of yogurt brands already? Yeah. Chobani, Dannon, Stonyfield, whatever. But they can get into the odd their audience much faster Sure. And build a good base. I mean, it's just it's the lesson number three that I learned. What's the category look like and what's the competition there? And luckily for us, I was gonna I was gonna hang up the hang up the boots, hang up the gloves until we found very interestingly enough from talking to the customers who was like, yo. There's this white space here and it's super top heavy. Yeah. And we're doing things. You're doing things great. Thank you. You're welcome. Well, it looks like we're unfortunately out of time today, Alexander. Thank you, Nate. Thank you so much for joining us on this highlight reel. It's been real. It's been real. It's been real. It's been real. Pun intended. Pun intended. Pun intended. Unintended. We'll be sending out an email post event with ways to get in touch with Alexander and Zesty Z and myself and Express Checkout as well as Highlight. And we'll also be doing a q and a, so be on the lookout for that. Alexander, where can, people find you? On Twitter, theharik. On LinkedIn, of course, I post some thoughts there. And then our website, zestyz.com. You can order product there. You can become an affiliate if you're interested, if you're a nutritionist, dietitian, kind of influencer that's on the fiber journey, wants to be on the fiber journey with us. There's some opportunities there. And then in all Wegmans, except for the New York City ones for now, mostly in the Midwest, in the Myers and a bunch of other chains. And we'll be expanding and have more exciting updates on retail launches later this year. Amazing. Thank you again, and thank you to Highlight. Thank you, Highlight. I'll say where they can find me. Yeah. Where can they find you, Nate? Yeah. They, tell them, Nate. They can find me in too many places. You can find me, on my Substack, Express Checkout. Nate Rosen is also on Substack. I'm on TikTok. I am on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn as well. So if you wanna chat more about CPG, consumer brands, retail, subscribe to the newsletter. It's the best newsletter in the game. Follow me. Plugged all that. TikTok is fun. And if we're friends on TikTok, you have my friends only posts, whichever. Oh, spicy name. Spicy. The best newsletter in the game. Yeah. Real actual insights. Thank you for that. That is what I've been told. Well, keep it up. Thank you. A pleasure.